@ chaw: i meant to say, that must have been their point of view. That the bible is subject to mistakes because it was written by 66 persons. Im just trying to explain thru logic because faith cannot be put into words.

Last edited by bubblegum (2014-04-03 06:34:12)

^yeah, my bad. Paul wrote a lot of epistles so 66 isnt correct. Thanks for pointing that out. My thought was about 66 books so it jumped to conclusion that there are also 66 authors.

[quote=bramzero;#391167;1396531197]Years ago I learned that many stories in bible esp. in the old testaments are based on the older scriptures from sumeria/mesopotamia civilization. It's based on oral tradition from thousands of years ago, passed through word of mouth, until it was recorded and reproduced. For instance you'll also find similar flood myth / noah ark's in epic of gilgamesh, which is one of the earliest works of literature.[/quote] No concrete evidence that the Epic of Gilgamesh came first. There are several possibilities such as the Old Testament has been preserved through oral tradition before written into manuscripts should be taken into account, making it older than the Epic of Gilgamesh. No concrete evidence can back up this one though. And yes, they have several similarities but it could have been the other way around. [quote=bramzero;#391167;1396531197]Actually I saw many contradictions between books, between the old and new. Not necessarily the prophecies but things in general. Like, I want to know what to do to my enemies and then I read bible. Somewhere in old testament says "kill and destroy them", new testament says "love and be kind to them". You can't even use bible as a solid moral guidance.[/quote] That's because Christ did not exist until the New Testament. He was the ultimate atonement for our sins. On the part where you said "kill and destroy", I believe you were referring to the enemies of the Israelites(chosen people of God). They were pagans and God detested their stubborn hearts and evil practices. The old testament was legalistic because it involves a lot of laws and rituals that needed to be followed. The punishment for sin is death. Like, if you sinned, you have to make a sacrificial offering, e.g, offer a bull to the altar so that you will be cleansed. That way, you who has sin will be blameless and the bull who was blameless will be the sacrifice. This is a bit complicated to explain. There is a transfer of sin from you to the bull so that after the sacrifice, you are once again, acceptable in the presence of God. However, in the New Testament, Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. He died ONCE and for ALL, so that we would never have to do what was required in the old testament. What was once exclusive for the Israelites, became available to us Gentiles. Salvation is a gift. If you don't accept it, it isn't yours. You don't have it. If you don't accept Christ, you don't have salvation. [quote=bramzero;#391167;1396531197]"love and be kind to them"[/quote] Matthew 22:39 Love your neighbor as you love yourself John 13:34 Love one another just as i have loved you. Everything in the bible talks about God's love. Some people just find it hard to believe that kind of unrequited love. Agape. [quote=bramzero;#391167;1396531197]The last time I checked bible there's no exact definition of what a christian is.[/quote] Google helps too. [quote=bramzero;#391167;1396531197]You can't even use bible as a solid moral guidance.[/quote] What? I don't even- most of our laws are based on the Ten Commandments. But CHrist gave two: Love God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind and love your neighbor as yourself. But if we follow just the first commandment, there would be no conflict. If you love God, you will not do anything to displease Him, that includes doing something wrong to everyone around you like stealing, murdering, or lying. The book of proverbs talks about what you need to do to live in this world. It's a great start in reading the bible. They're just simple guidelines on everyday living.

[quote=aya;#390464;1396278384]How?[/quote] God's existence is not a general knowledge. We know He exist because we believe he does.

@chaw Yes I got some of your points but it bothers me that God not only acted like a kid with emotional issue but he also has this kind of superiority and narcissistic complex. "Worship and obey me or die". Where's God the merciful? He was being contradictory to the "love and compassion" values. [quote=bubblegum;#391257;1396578322]No concrete evidence that the Epic of Gilgamesh came first. There are several possibilities such as the Old Testament has been preserved through oral tradition before written into manuscripts should be taken into account, making it older than the Epic of Gilgamesh. No concrete evidence can back up this one though. And yes, they have several similarities but it could have been the other way around.[/quote] We could say that both came from oral tradition before written into scripts. And take into account the fact that Sumerian civilization had been around since 5000BC while records of ancient Jewish started at around 1500BC. Old Testament is just a copy-paste from the books of Tanakh so the "preserved oral tradition" can't go further back from the Jewish timeline. [quote=bubblegum;#391257;1396578322]That's because Christ did not exist until the New Testament. He was the ultimate atonement for our sins. On the part where you said "kill and destroy", I believe you were referring to the enemies of the Israelites(chosen people of God). They were pagans and God detested their stubborn hearts and evil practices. The old testament was legalistic because it involves a lot of laws and rituals that needed to be followed. The punishment for sin is death. Like, if you sinned, you have to make a sacrificial offering, e.g, offer a bull to the altar so that you will be cleansed. That way, you who has sin will be blameless and the bull who was blameless will be the sacrifice. This is a bit complicated to explain. There is a transfer of sin from you to the bull so that after the sacrifice, you are once again, acceptable in the presence of God. However, in the New Testament, Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. He died ONCE and for ALL, so that we would never have to do what was required in the old testament. What was once exclusive for the Israelites, became available to us Gentiles. Salvation is a gift. If you don't accept it, it isn't yours. You don't have it. If you don't accept Christ, you don't have salvation.[/quote] It sounds laughable to me, the concept that God is like a bloodthirsty divine being who requires sacrifices from living creatures like bulls, and Christ. So can people go like "weeeeee new testament! lets go nuts do whatever things! accept christ! get salvation!"? For the sake of argument lezz just assume the Old Testament has became obsolete since post Christ era. What are Jesus last words? Who went to Jesus' tomb and who did they see there? Ask Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, we get some different answers from them. Holy spirit surely could do a better job writing a consistent story. [quote=bubblegum;#391257;1396578322]What? I don't even- most of our laws are based on the Ten Commandments. But CHrist gave two: Love God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind and love your neighbor as yourself. But if we follow just the first commandment, there would be no conflict. If you love God, you will not do anything to displease Him, that includes doing something wrong to everyone around you like stealing, murdering, or lying. The book of proverbs talks about what you need to do to live in this world. It's a great start in reading the bible. They're just simple guidelines on everyday living.[/quote] You cannot take that kind of pars pro toto point of view because the Ten Commandments is just a tiny fragment and don't represent the whole what's in Bible. It's impossible to ask God directly what actually the things that displease him, people can only try to do whatever they can to grasp the true meaning of the Bible passages. This is subject to conflicting interpretations and errors. People can do good just for the sake of goodness, as opposed to doing good to gain favor because they're in lovey dovey with God. Einstein once said "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education and social ties; no religious basis is necessary". You will find the truth behind that quote in the example below. Continuing about morality, it does not seem that Jesus changed much of morality points from the Old Testament. An example, slavery. Nowhere in the Bible slavery is condemned. Bible goes as bizarre as to explain how to get slaves, how to beat them, how to have sex with slaves, etc. Society regarded slavery as consistent with Bible and christian teaching. Christian leaders owned slaves, branded their chests like cattles with some red hot iron, worked them out in plantations, etc. When eventually some centuries ago human's moral intuition evolved to the point that they recognize that it's simply wrong to practice slavery, the abolition of slavery movement started but Bible and christian fundamentalists became an obstacle. As a moral guidance, Bible is flawed and incomplete.

[quote=chaw;#390493;1396286452]We do. Look outside. There's only so much a human mind can comprehend.[/quote] [quote=bianx;#390632;1396332915]Our feelings? The incompleteness we feel every single day, even though in reality, we have all the things we needed to be alive?[/quote] [quote=ninch;#391393;1396624708]and then suddenly, something good will happen and it will give us a light, a little bit of hope we thought is lost. haven't you wondered where such things came from? this just shows that God exists and nothing is impossible with Him.[/quote] As much as I want to agree with all of you, this doesn't prove anything. People may experience positive changes because of believing in God but it may as well be coincidental/false. Even an atheist might argue that not believing in God produces positive feelings but it doesn't mean that there's no God. Saying you believe in God because of faith simply means "I believe in God because I do". If I say that I believe there are mermaids and unicorns because of my blind faith (from the bottom of my heart. ) that it truly exists doesn't mean they rly do exist. This is an unacceptable answer from someone who follows Christ because: [i]But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,[/i] (1 Peter 3:15). Saying that we have faith is not the same as giving a reason for that faith.

Last edited by zanza (2014-04-04 17:20:55)

I read through this thread and tried my best to stay away from it. Because, let's all admit it. No one wins in religion. Besides, I don't understand a single thing about the references. I have never opened a bible. Which is why I agree with this: [quote=bramzero;#391386;1396621235]As a moral guidance, Bible is flawed and incomplete.[/quote] I respect you people who are very dedicated to the word or god. Or whatever terminology you use for religious dedication. And I don't understand how one can believe so much words of the Bible to be true. [quote=bubblegum;#391257;1396578322]The old testament was legalistic because it involves a lot of laws and rituals that needed to be followed. [b]The punishment for sin is death.[/b] Like, if you sinned, you have to make a sacrificial offering, e.g, offer a bull to the altar so that you will be cleansed. That way, [b]you who has sin will be blameless and the bull who was blameless will be the sacrifice.[/b] This is a bit complicated to explain. There is [b]a transfer of sin from you to the bull so that after the sacrifice, you are once again, acceptable in the presence of God.[/b][/quote] I do not wish to offend anyone, but isn't this similar to this situation?: I killed Prince William. It's a sin. I must fetch a completely innocent person/creature and blame him/it for it. Make him/it take the blame. After it's all done, I will be sinless again. I will go to heaven even if the completely innocent person/creature suffered from my wrongdoings. [quote=bubblegum;#391257;1396578322]If you don't accept Christ, you don't have salvation.[/quote] V [quote=bramzero;#391386;1396621235]God not only acted like a kid with emotional issue but he also has this kind of superiority and narcissistic complex. "Worship and obey me or die". Where's God the merciful? He was being contradictory to the "love and compassion" values.[/quote] I can't put a verse or something from the bible about good values and morals and stuff like that. Or what God said about our enemies and friends. I do not believe in the bible and the teachings of the church. But I believe I have a God my faith can hold on to. Let's be good to others, my friends. If they want to get a tattoo but you think it's bad because of the "our body is a temple" thing, keep your opinion to yourself. Them getting a tattoo doesn't mean they are treating their bodies as trash. Tattoo is a decoration. A tribute or something like that. That doesn't sound like self-destruction at all and if they said something like they doubt the existence of God when they are Christians. That's their business. No one disses you and your hold to your religion.

[quote=Chan;#391482;1396680818]this isnt about religion though nor it is "religious"[/quote] well someone brought up religion. My bad, then. I wasn't sure of my terminologies, man. I don't go to church nor read the bible, remember

[quote=Chan;#391533;1396686663]god made you so pogi and you dont thank him [/quote] HAHAHAHAHA oh no, I thank God. All the time. And I thank my parents. I thank my genes. I like him in my verbal expressions I just don't thank the church's teachings. Man I hope I made my point.

Itz really bad to influence one...eventhough you know that certain religion does not make any sense to you..but Im sure every religion teaches good stuff to their people who believes em. I do have a friend he is a Catholic, we use to be a classmate... he is tryin to influence meh join his religion...at first he was juz offerin meh to join...I said to him, Thank you so much I will consider...but in ma heart I really have no intention to convert and so forth...but as day goes by he is tryin force meh into it... so I told him no thank you...I appreciate your thoughts...then he started to insult ma religion...I told him straight, if you do not respect ma religion how would you expect others to respect yours...I told him off...and since then we are no longer friends...I cant believe it.... is that whut his religion taught him? Sad to say coz of religious issues people have conflicts from one another... itz really somethin not to be proud of. [spoiler]For example a wind you cant see it, but you can alwayz feels it! So itz alwayz up to individual on whut they truly beliefs! [/spoiler]

Last edited by Principe Azheef (2014-04-05 07:22:24)